027 – 25% with Karben4

In this Happy Hour podcast, Ryan and John chat COVID Restrictions with Ryan and Zak Koga of Karben4 in Madison, WI.

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Hello and welcome back to another back

flip happy hour

I’m Ryan fring one of your hosts here

and I hope that you brought your tequila

for our little chat today joining me as

always we’ve got John shoemaker hello

other creative director here at backflip

John you’re in a new location that looks

great I’m yes I’m I’m back in the office

back in the saddle but somehow I still

have oh yeah two steps forward another

step forward oh yeah what are you

drinking with us today I am actually

going gasp

something very refreshing well

Leinenkugel’s summer Shandy a little

little juicy little lemonade for some

case but because I get good summer

perfect for this balmy summer weather

alright and enough of that let’s bring

on our good buddy Zach and Ryan there

they are

how’s it going guys so what are you guys

drinking with us today I also have

sparkling water because I need to stay

hydrated we got a duplicate in your tank

already this morning so let’s just

coffee now yeah no it’s at some point

maybe we can or thirty again yeah feel

bad about about drinking so much but

thanks for coming on in doing another

one of these I love having you guys on

and especially you know as you guys are

just business owners too and good

friends of ours I love just hearing how

it’s going and what’s happening you know

and getting updates from you so that’s

you know that’s kind of why I thought

it’d be really cool to talk to you guys

thanks for having us back we always like

hanging out I could be lying if I said

I’m not happy that we don’t play the

games again because I couldn’t log in

and felt like a real idiot last time dad

that was really hard

but we do have a new game I think we

played it last time with you guys

but it’s not an online game we play two

truths and a lie

do we play that with you guys last time

oh good I wasn’t sure if this was gonna

be our third time playing with you

we played what was it it was like a the

jack box games yeah jack box yeah yeah

that was a wreck but it was fun to try

so yeah how are you guys doing what’s

been going on riding away trying to get

the did a bunch of stuff for the taproom

last minute before opening that was

quite a bit we’re just so kind of lined

up all of that while we’ve been

adjusting to having people back in the

tavern which we haven’t you know for a

couple months it was just us again so

then just readjusting to having people

here in customers here starting at a

certain time it’s kind of weary sturdy I

mean you start a business to have the

customers and then all of a sudden you

spent a couple months about them in here

like up in the personal space and then

and then now they’re all back so mm-hmm

that’s good we got the patio our dad

spent a couple of weeks doing his back

it’s the best Dexter impression wearing

his uh range jacket and everything while

he power washed and then stained up all

the patio fencing and the pergola and

everything so that’s done and inviting

and we got got a lot of cool things that

are out there and it’s a nice little

space that’s awesome and we did

beforehand and we’ve talked about you

know talk during this and now we’re kind

of like in the phased reopening like

what’s the emotional rollercoaster like

where are you guys at in that I think

we’re pretty I don’t know nums not

exactly right but I think it’s relative

to like the rollercoaster portion of it

were we’re we’re battle-hardened a

little bit at this point mm-hmm you know

we’re used to

we’re not scared of work and all that

and then you know when when the whole

shutdown thing started we just jumped

right into like just kind of like battle

mode and like not you know I guess I

think I think our mindset was not to

like sit around and look for what’s

happening to us it’s more like what are

we gonna do about it so unless kind of I

think impacted by you know like like

today why Wyatt why aren’t we evaluating

data to be open for Phase two today like

the county said we would do at the

beginning of this I don’t think that

Russ really care

we’re like whatever we’re just doing our

thing to be honest we haven’t even we’ve

probably gotten close but generally we

haven’t really got been like right at

that 25 percent threshold inside anyway

so we’re just we’re just busy doing our

thing keeping our heads down trying to

make our you know cleaning and like

operational processes as good as they

can be and and and try to like manage

keeping everyone spaced out as best we

can and we’re just we’re focused on that

so it’s been going alright we just kind

of rolling with it what else can you do

it seems like some of that might come

down to just the speed or comfort level

of people you know coming back out even

even if the county or things open back

up or say that you can it’s kind of

what’s the comfort level of people

coming out to restaurants and stuff I

know my wife and I we just went to our

first restaurant a since the shutdown so

that was really fun to actually link be

somewhere in person but I could tell

that they were very they were trying to

follow all the rules and things and

trying to be really diligent about that

so you know she was like I had a mask

and glove and she’s standing like way

back from our table and I was kind of


here like trying to like order our food

but so there’s gonna be some of that

transition obviously happening yeah has

that been like a different two weeks I

know you guys were talking before we got

on just of capacity and what’s going on

and how that’s you know just impacting

you guys obviously two weeks ago you

were able to allow people back in you

said you’re not at 25 percent yet is

that you know are you think people are a

little hesitant or you know even with

the space I’ve been in there when it’s

packed pre all this but like what do you

typically operate at you know do you

operate at 50 percent pretty regularly

or less or more or like you know cuz

that’s that idea of like you can open a

twenty five percent well if we’re not at

least forty percent we’re not you know

net positive right you know it costs us

more to be open or you know things like

that so there was a question originally

and then I ended with a weird statement

it’s very it’s very up-and-down at

different times of the days you can

imagine like your your happy hour dinner

service and very quickly be a hundred

percent and a lot of the other times of

the day are are much more like twenty

five percent or less like and and one of

the changes we make coming out of this

is that our lunch hour lunch was very

inconsistent I mean it it was like just

kind of barely worth doing and we we

just wanted to be generally open for

people depending on you know just to

give people the ability to stop by

whenever or we’re just trying to be

hospitable generally and we have traffic

where there’s business travelers coming

to and from the airport and they stop by

different hours or local businesses in

our area of being able to grab lunch

kind of quietly we’re always open for

that stuff now we’re kind of more in the

position to not we made the decision not

to be open for lunch because those were

regularly times when we were definitely

like just later yeah


percent would be like wouldn’t good you

know on a lot of lunch days so now we

open at 3:00 we’re trying to just

capture that busier time so it’s more

worth it especially now being limited

but as a brewery were we’re a little

less susceptible to like that exact

percentage because we’re here making

beer all day every day Rhys got the team

running like crazy like almost think

seven days a week really like once you

count all the stuff

so being turning the lights on the

taproom it can it can we don’t have to

be absolutely stuffed so just pay the

bills but you know we’re certainly not

making money on it but we’re paying the

bills mm-hmm and be able to able to wait

this out and work through our process

work through the general public like all

our customers getting more comfortable

coming out and and our ability to be

better at making them feel more

comfortable mm-hmm just kind of keep

keep working on it it it it’s a lot

harder I mean a lot of the restaurants

and bars

I think have a much steeper Hill to

climb in regards to that like exactly

how busy do they have to be to be able

to be worth it to be open mm-hmm I love

how chill you guys are and you know I

feel like I have a similar attitude like

what else are we gonna do you know we’re

gonna try our best and do what we can

and try to figure out how to move

forward and try not to get too worried

or too anxious about things like he’s

the whole new thing I think Monday you

know was 14 days we could be moving into

that are they considering it we’ll see

but it sounds like whatever is happening

you guys are just you know keeping

pushing on and doing whatever you can

yeah what is that I’m watching I think I

told Ryan this the other day I’m

watching seal team on CBS which is

really fun then they talk about the

three-foot world which is like you know

you can control what’s in front of you

and around you in a three-foot space but

don’t worry about that other stuff and I

don’t know it’s a real mentality or

mentality on the show but it’s

essentially like

this is what affects your life you know

you can control it I think we can kind

of extrapolate that a little bit as well

like yeah are you gonna spend hours

going and knocking on the you know Dane

County councilman’s door like or are you

gonna get to work and you know work on a

pop up to a prune or something you know

I think it’s kind of obvious like what’s

better I think we answered that that’s

what that I mean that’s innovation right

I mean when it hits the fan you you know

either you adapt and survive

what were you saying adapt or die it was

like a big thing for a little while I

think it’s almost masks maybe from from

origin captain Oliver come adapt and


yeah I mean either you’re yeah yeah it’s

just that what are you gonna do we you

can sit around whine about it and you

can be the victim in any situation in

life ever and and always it’s not just

like oh when it happens it’s always

happening life is very difficult for

every single person everybody’s got

their stuff there’s only something

happening to the world if it wasn’t the

pandemic could be hurricane season or it

would be we have this horrible situation

with you know the rioting and the

protests and stuff there’s all those

types of issues in the world constantly

and there always will be and all we can

do is what we can do you know better

alright got stuck there for a second

I think we’re getting we’re getting a

hurricane this afternoon yeah there we


I agree putting a tropical storm that’s

it’s cut it came from the Gulf and I

just saw this on the NBC whether they’re

like it’s not very often but a tropical

storm is reaching Wisconsin you know and

that’s the thing like that’s life I I

think that that it’s very easy to miss

that context the more comfortable we get

you know the more advanced our society

and our culture gets and the further of

Maslow’s hierarchy we move we get


that from the fact that life is

suffering you know kind of fundamentally

it’s very difficult

mother nature is trying to kill us we’re

trying to kill each other you know

you’re fighting your own demons you’re

trying not to be lazy you’re trying to

get out of bed in the morning you try

not to eat chocolate and candy you know

I’m trying not to go into Kohlberg’s

every time I see cookie dough on the

flavor of the day or I’m whatever I’m

trying not to be a jerk I’m trying to be

a better dad trying to be my that’s this

is what life is for every individual

person and I think you know whether it’s

individually or as some group you know

like whether it’s a village or community

of any sight whatever it is you know

state a country when we sit around just

looking for people to blame it’s or

whatever or we’ll wait until somebody

else does something for us or whatever

to solve our problems I think it’s just

the wrong mindset like yeah stuff stuff

things change people make good decisions

and bad decisions

governments are sometimes good and

sometimes bad but what do you what are

you gonna do you like what am i one of

my coaches growing up let’s say you can

only do what you can do but you better

do it you know and I that’s just

something that stuck with me forever as

yeah like you better do it I think is

like the real punchline but you know yes

you can only do what you can do so don’t

drive yourself crazy being neurotic

about everything mm-hm

but you better act and so in this

situation you know yeah phase two got

delayed what the hell are we gonna do

about it like we just better do what we

can do right now we have a drive model

you know at st. John’s that so we’re

gonna that’s what we’re gonna do we’re

gonna do that and and we’ll keep

following the rules as best we can in

the taproom and do as much as we can

there and that’s kind of that you better

do it side but not gonna surround

blaming people or you know like the

county they learn an impossible

situation I don’t I you know overall I

think they’re really trying to do the

right thing and the best that they can

do but but on a crunch timeline and


a lot of like we don’t even have good

data really as a as a county state or

even nation on exactly how widespread is

this you know whole virus thing and how

many of the deaths really are Kovach

versus not we know it’s bad we know we

don’t understand it we know we’re scared

of it and they’re doing their best I

think that they’re making some mistakes

too you know I think that the thing they

did the churches last week was was an


you know relative to the scope of their

police out program I think it was I

think that was a misstep you’re talking

about reclassifying like on Friday night

I encourage gather gathering yeah sure

there’s there’s rational explanations

for that but I you know like they’re

they’re doing what they can

I think that the ultimate test will be

and Cesar give the power back to the

Senate when they’re done here that’s my

my fear is phase 3 and phase 4 are

basically competing II I don’t I don’t

like that short structure I think I

think government very specifically must

always have limitations I think that

that something history has taught us for

thousands of years and that this is a

this is a real risk as a society and

culture to you know give give over our

lives to to the powers that be and and

we kind of forget that they’re just our

neighbors you know and at the end of the

day it’s really up to every individual

person to take responsibility for their

lives and their families lives and their

safety and we shouldn’t infantilize

ourselves and just you know blindly give

in to these you know the best efforts of

our neighbors at the county level or the

state level or the national level to

take care of us I think we I think

that’s I think that’s a much bigger risk

than the sickness itself is the sickness

of kind of mental and spiritual weakness

you know of us as a culture kind of kind

of laying down and and just I don’t know

take allowing this fear to potentially

manifest in a lot of bad ways here going

forward over here comes general well yes

that’s always kind of been that

of RAD trying to it by trying to mandate

things from the top down there’s so many

good like quotes and things that I’ve

read through all of this that I probably

should have studied more in in high

school history class or in my you know

sociology studies and things I’m talking

about the you know think the people

allowing the government to work for them

to help help structure them in as

opposed to you know the government sort

of allowing people to have their their

lives and you know like all these things

these inspiring things that happen on

the smaller community level where people

are connecting with each other and

helping each other and things like that

sometimes it it works best to well and

you have to have people who are willing

to like serve each other and love each

other for that to happen but it works

best when it happens on that level as

opposed to being like sort of mandated

fourth that you must help each other in

this way you know like fit doesn’t quite

work in that same in that same way and I

can tie that into one of our first

question or talking about the you know

the positive impact of the would you

call in the pop up Tap Room’s you know

just being so phenomenal and so many

people loved it and supported it you

know and you guys were kind of like

pulling together local businesses and

making that like community aspect still

feel alive even when we were like

separated from each other they asked

Carolyn asked what was your highlight

you know what was one of your highlights

from those pop ups a frome’s

way to bring it back I mean people were

happy I don’t know yeah I think that was

just so that take away what’s

um you know way back when I think the

first time we sat down in the studio we

talked about an attitude of gratitude

and that kind of stopped him and when

you know he there’s a big difference

between somebody saying thank you and

then them just like emitting and

vibrating you know with a positive

feeling and I think that was part of the

best part or Zone in a lot times act it

the whole thing was really Zacks

brainchild and he coordinated it all and

this wouldn’t have existed and run at

all without without him I only

participated really as a filling in a

spot you know but I was trying to help

anchor for while we try to figure it out

like the fulfillment part which was you

know actually putting stuff in cars and

getting to interact and then as I was

you know as we got really really busy I

was directing traffic and trying to get

the crew organized and I got to spend a

lot of time talking to people as they

were waiting for their order you know

I’m loading it and so just getting to

talk to them I mean hundreds of people

every day doing that you know was um

from a distance right what the heck I

think we’re doing a window with my

matically just being you know for them

it might have been their first like

human contact in a couple weeks or

whatever you know like I mean just face

for day you know just yeah within

proximity not zoom not not FaceTime not

audio call just kind of seeing somebody

eye-to-eye and then and all the while

we’re like hey we’re there happy to

spend some money but we’re also offering

them the service of fresh awesome good

local stuff and they can see they’re not

waiting to hear some news article about

how their daughter they want to get

their dollar to trickle down and how

they participate in the economy like

they’re seeing it directly in front of

them you know like the people who are

making and selling and then loading and

you know the interaction of like was

just so direct as far was a hardwired

response and so to see people happy and

positive like we would get slammed with

cars for a couple hours straight and it

was just like you’re just hustling and

like I all of a sudden at the very end

you’d almost we would feel very tired

but I’d never felt tired in between time

it was like happy was this is such a

positive experience that I think it

would I mean obviously the revenue like

we you know I need the revenue and

that’s like all impactful but I think it

it was more soul food than you know than

really what you know then revenue in the

end it was just really good for

everybody even vendor to vendor sitting

there you know and afterwards we would

you know we’d all hang out for a little

bit and and to be able to just talk to

other business owners that were there

you know and you’re all in the same kind

of unique not only meet but we’re in a

similar situation of you know a small

business knowing it and feeling what

we’re dealing in so it was good to be

able to download and talk and relate

with somebody you know to so I I don’t

think anybody there was just no it’s

just so well thought through by Zach

that they ended up being like nobody

paid a cost there was no negative part

of it it was all positive 100% it was a

all positive for everyone involved and

only does that kind of thing happen you

know yeah I was gonna say I feel like I

came to a couple of them and like just

participating in something like that is

energizing and positive and good you

know you see people who you recognize

wave out your window that you haven’t

been able to see people and to some

extent I kind of forgot you know we

interact in a real setting with people

until I drove by and they’re in the car

like what’s happening you know like tell

me anything I want to hear a story I

think that was needed yeah that was the

yes we financially us and thirty other

businesses and parishes and

municipalities all that like there was

just that direct obvious benefit but the

real point was like people go crazy when

they’re isolated were workmen were meant

to be in community and communion with

each other and that was the that to me

that’s really the punchline the real

value just there were so many people

smiling so many people telling us this

is the only time I really get

in my week and I look forward to it

every week and when we stop doing it and

want to keep it took just like a

two-week break and Waunakee es we were

like resetting the taproom and getting

our stuff organized now we’re back there

this week but it but there in particular

being our home parish where we started a

lot of feedback about when does that get

going again like I miss it’s being able

to go see people to feel like I’m

participating and like supporting

everybody you know as much and boy that

it just yeah I felt so often we’re just

grinding sort of grinding the ax on the

next beer the next product and that

whatever it is the next day’s going oh

this was just good it’s just it just had

that feeling all the way around like

this is just adding value to people and

there’s no better feeling than that at

all and like we’ll figure out a way to

turn it into a business but when you

when you capture that essence of like

you’re adding value to people making him

happy that that’s just I mean that’s the

strike zone for us and makes us feel way

more energized about the rest of reality

here and remodeling the taproom I mean

Ryan like four or five straight days and

nights like ripping apart the taproom

and painting it is just exhausting but

you see all these smiling people at

drive-throughs and it’s like no we’re

doing good I think there was three other

kind of clear observations I was just

thinking of one one was future in the

summer everybody’s good all these


you know canceled and so people are

trying to think wait on what am I gonna

do this summer and what they normally

would have thought of to do for any kind

of activity had evaporated right so it

was all a question mark and it was fun

like one of the last events we had where

we had the UM Melissa called big bar or

whatever like ice cream bars yeah we

started off I mean just something as

simple as like you know the big bar

thing or whatever when we had some ice

cream something that’s sleep I mean it’s

the chocolate sure you get it yeah you

get a chocolate wrap you get it on my

that’s something you get while you’re at

the farmers market that like you have to

eat right then in there right there’s

something fun a little street vendor


thing and you’re sitting there and still

she’s ready and you’re wondering like

hey am I gonna have this experience even

this summer this year or how long is it

gonna be before you know that’s greenlit

again and all of a sudden you drove up

and people are like we just were able to

be like no listen you couldn’t obviously

you couldn’t walk up to there but that’s

the whole point of this Here I am and

I’m bringing that right to you and now

you can sit in your car right here and

have that same experience so being able

connect something like that really

quickly was was very positive um the

second part was or that was thinking of

was that um I mean you guys know this as

you know small business owners too but

you’re you’re constantly trying to

develop with the new product it’s gonna

be your service or what next or what are

you gonna do in the new you end up you

know pouring a lot of yourself into it

and energy and whatever else and then

sometimes things are just you know big

fart noises and I think you know that’s

what they know about who you are I think

lots of farts over the last over the

last couple of years as you know there

was more and more breweries which meant

more more options which is great for the

consumer in the end you know part of me

right Walt both of us and there was just

a lot of cynicism that starts to creep

in when you you spend a lot of time

developing something it takes a lot of

effort develop a new beer a new label a

new package you know and and try to not

the food as a cut and paste but we

actually you know go through the process

of the art and art development as you

well know since you guys helped us you

know on that but there’s so much that

goes into every step of it and in the

end it just ends up being like a big

nothing burger and it just you can only

do that so many times before you just

start feeling dead inside you’re like I

mean you’re like what’s that what do is

we missing are we yeah yeah there’s that

part you’re like what are you missing

and you’re not connecting or whatever

else and then to just have a new

completely new type of offering of an

experience you know that folks are

missing and then have like a couple

hundred cars lineup for it week after

week was like this what a positive

feeling there to have it like pay off to

have that effort and like immediately

actually pay off and then see the impact

on not only for our own Souls like I

said previously the first thing we’ll

see the positive impact of the customer

know that like oh you you gave someone

exactly what they were looking for you

know or they didn’t even know it you

know and you’re like well I’ve been

trying to tell you I’ve been giving

something you didn’t know you wanted and

he didn’t care now here it is and it’s

such a good feeling to have it good home

that and then third thing would be we

finally got the van that we were gonna

get for our festival

rahama then we got a transit band for

the transit baby no but what are they

worth I mean to tie it back to the

lesson of this thing like don’t sit

around and wait for your fate to just

you know come to you it took the problem

to relearn that lesson of you know quit

feeling sorry for ourselves if we’re

missing on a few things here and there

get over it baby you know like try the

next thing try the next thing maybe

you’re not doing good enough maybe

you’re not being whatever honest enough

about your work or something and here’s

a chance to like oh yeah when when

really bad stuff happened we kind of got

back to basics what do people what can

we give people we can give them this and

we can give them the taproom back or we

can give them Seltzer we can give them

the other things we’re working on it’s

like we got back to like well it can

really look what can we really offer to

people let’s just keep working on that

and stop feeling sorry for ourselves

about some seasonal that didn’t hit you

know stop being cynical about it stop

start taking responsibility for it again

we need be a leader and a business owner

we talked about in one of our previous

streams we talked about like what will

things maybe look like you know coming

back after this and I think you know you

guys are finding some interesting ideas

I I did the same thing I was driving

through Mount Horeb the other day and

there was this guy who had a kettle corn

stand out and I just like just cranked

over hold the parking brake left my car

sideways in the road anyway and my but I

got out and I was like I’m like dude

this is amazing

this is totally what I want you know

like bought the big bag brought it home

you know we enjoyed eating it while we

were like gardening and things like that

but I was just like ah that’s like that

thing you can’t get when there’s no like

fairs and farmers markets and you know

public events and stuff so like that

that community connection that you guys

are bringing I think yeah I mean that

you’re kind of like hitting on something

that that people are missing and and

like you said you’ve through carbon four

you’ve been trying to like promote those

ideas for a while but like people don’t

it takes a little bit for people to like

wake up to that or realize like in their

life Brent had asked and maybe you guys

can give us a hopeful message because

he’s asking about like attitudes

changing you know like and that you know

when you look historically when big

things happen people kind of make

adjustments for that short period of

time to kind of get through it but then

after they just kind of go back to what

they’ve been doing

what do you uh do you think it’s

possible that things can be different

this time or is it just gonna be a few

people that hold on to what they gained

and you know there’s nothing new Under

the Sun right yes well we we have you

know a great wake-up call on so many

dimensions when when you go through

times like this both you know

individually at a family level business

level cultural you know city state and

so on

but but of course we’re gonna drift away

from the lessons that we learn we always

do it it I mean it’s it forever right

like it history that the whole every

saying about history repeating itself is

true obviously and I think we’ve seen it

a little bit in the drive thrus Ryan I

think observed at first where as the

week’s went on or as we got closer to

opening up there was a slightly there

was it went from just like

everyone was so happy to get out of the

house and do something to more recently

you get a little bit of a percentage of

the cars coming through where they’re

kind of back is it just like a little

bit more that I don’t know upset like I

want it this sounds worse than it is

with that like upset more like entitled

mindset we’re like I can’t believe you

ran out of something and it’s like I’m

sorry the car in front of you bought the

last thing in like we’re an hour past

the end date of the event like I wish I

could have guessed better that you know

you shouldn’t have waited in line for

this hamburger or something like we

tried our best to cut it off we were

wrong by five cars out of 400 like I’m

really sorry right and it’s like irate

and can’t tear out of the line fast

enough and like try to run people over

on their way out and we’re like we’re

like well I guess that’s kind of that

you know like more run-of-the-mill like

behavior that starting to peak its head

into even just this tiny little example

where yeah I think you’ll I think a lot

of you know sigh I think like everything

a lot of people will hold on to lessons

maybe forever or longer than others and

and some others might return you know

because there might be whatever there’s

other issues there’s issues in

everyone’s lives and in those issues

manifest in different ways and sometimes

they get punched in the face with some

gratitude and humility and wears off too

fast for some people so yeah well I

think I think you’re hitting it on the

head too maybe this is a question back

to Brent you know other examples but

you’re you know talking about kind of

small things but there’s big things that

we’re talking about to like right now

with you know racism is a huge

discussion right now and should always

be a good discussion because anything

that potentially tears us apart or

separates us you know is is not good in

kind of the general sense of it and when

we’re talking about that you know now

looks a lot different than 400 years ago

looks a lot different than a hundred

years ago but it doesn’t still mean that

there doesn’t need to be change or

change hasn’t happened you know I think

I think if you think no changes happen

that’s wrong and I think if you think no

change needs to happen

you know it’s wrong and I feel like

that’s a personal statement as well like

if I do something and somebody reacts

strongly negatively I’ll investigate

like okay what happened you know is it

something that I did or something they

did and if it’s not my fault I can

understand how to do better at that the

next time but I hope I feel like we have

to hope that the large things can change

but I think the small things don’t like

you said like the entitlement like you

guys remember growing up and you get a

magazine and you know I would order like

super-secret ring you decode or whatever

and you send a check off in like maybe

eight weeks later something arrives

maybe right but the second we don’t have

to two-day Amazon we’re like yeah I

can’t this is this is not democracy like

you know I don’t care get out of my face

like you’re a liar you’re a liar

do what I want to like you know we get a

little crazy maybe I’m overdoing it but

I think it’s it’s more small things that

repeat themselves and I hope that I hope

that the large things I hope we do

change you know and this would be if

Carolyn’s still on you know somebody who

studies history like look at Rome right

are we like the new Roman Empire and are

we going to fall to the same things that

they did I mean I would hope not I would

hope no modern society that can study

history will repeat those things because

you’re doomed to repeat you know history

if you’re not aware of it but I think

it’s maybe those small things that that

repeat as opposed to those larger things

which hopefully as a world you know

culture we can overcome you know cuz I

think at this point we’re like yeah

let’s not kill each other killing is bad

we can mostly agree on that right but

2,000 years ago very different you know

500 years ago very different kind of

stance on that it’s are pretty

insignificant in lots parts of the world

right now I mean and we overlook it all

the time there’s genocide and and travel

work there and I mean we you know the us

been in conflict in the Middle East

forever there’s yeah we

they’re the same I mean to me there’s I

mean I hate to say it because I we

absolutely love this country but it’s

like isn’t it almost guaranteed that

well change is guaranteed right of some

kind so you know listen man humanity’s

been trying to flee how to coexist Union

unions have been trying to figure out

how to live with other humans sister was

humans and that’ll never change mm-hm

and the goal should be that we get

better better metrics you know like the

metric of somebody’s content of

melatonin is the biggest pile of BS you

know like that kind of crap doesn’t

matter like we’re all humans and that’s

all a friggin matters so like the better

metric by which to interact with people

like don’t don’t become and when you

like you have to have like they’re

supposed to be differences among us

that’s you know if every book was the

same what would be the point you know

you read one book right different it

reads one book and you’d have all the

information forever and all derivations

on every plotline would only just be one

book and that’s all you ever get like

there’s no flavor there there’s no

beauty in that like the fact that my

wife’s world wasn’t the same time see

what post was a repeat for an entire

weekend you’ve seen a beautiful sunset

that doesn’t like you still want to

watch another one even though it’s the

Sun it’s it’s the same classification of

a metric of just sunset but like the

next day you’re a new person you’re a

different thing you know like it’s all

the same type of thing so humans are

humans we’re still trying to learn how

to live with each other um

metrics are important so you know how to

interact with things around you I mean

that’s you put a Roomba

in your house and the first thing it

does is map out the house so it knows

where it should go wouldn’t clean and

vacuum well first thing it does is run

into everything yeah cuz it has to right

that’s what makes it out looks like a

metric it’s like okay this is furniture

this is this is where I should be this

is where I shouldn’t be you don’t like

so metrics and understanding your world

around you to know where you’re at is a

very important thing so that you know

how to wear it interact but you got to

get better metrics than somebody’s race

or religion or anything like that

because that’s that’s just wrong that’s

just wrong like we’re all humans man

like and there was a little video by

Jacko the other day when he is

commentary on he you kind of hate I even

thought about that part of the analogy

or the story that he brought up which

was the story from World War one which

was Christmas Eve and the British heard

the the Germans starting to sing and

laugh they were singing Christmas songs

on Christmas Eve and they started

calling out to the British and they

ended up putting down their arms and

they all talked and they came out of

their trenches in like and remember that

they’re just people and humans and

they’re like why are we even doing this

what what are we doing why why is that

this is not what we’re supposed to be


mm-hm and they actually like try to find

ways to not fight each other for a long

while until basically the generals from

different sides came down and said

either you fight them or and execute you

for treason

you know like that sort of thing it was

a British well yeah that’s the impromptu

Christmas night oh yeah

and in his whole point was like remember

that that person out there you know

whether it doesn’t matter you know why

the reason that they’re out there

doesn’t you know it they’re all humans

and you gotta remember that each one’s a

brother a sister a son a daughter a dad

a mom you know and and all the crap out

there that want to have the wrong

metrics and want to do it I mean and and

the thing is to try to figure out even

how to interact with that you know you

know it’s not yep because buddy I’ll

stay surface level to it but that that

gets back to the discussion about some

of these systems that are in place like

just to use that analogy of the

Christmas night thing you know who are


the generals demanding that we fighting

each other you know that’s one of the

the powers-that-be that say now that you

don’t like each other and you need to

keep fighting yeah and don’t you’re

still you have to be responsible for

yourself individually I mean that’s the

war is a very difficult place to talk

about some of those things it’s like you

this chain of command and the idea of

just war versus war and it’s a very

difficult gray area to navigate but but

taking it back to just like day-to-day

life and peacetime you know on the

streets where we are like the best thing

you can do is is to really take

responsibility for yourself as an

individual and and to tell the truth you

know and to live in a truthful manner

and to not get yourself caught up and

and ideas that have you you know maybe

you don’t have ideas maybe they have you

and you need to be careful not to act

you know need to be careful I think to

monitor and be self aware of do I really

believe the things I’m saying you know

am I really well we were just talking

about this together they were reflecting

and like he saved dumb stuff or you

respond in anger or lose or whatever and

you’re like that did I was I don’t

believe that why did I say that and and

I think I think that happens when you

get into these sort of like mob you know

thing and I’m not feeling it like

there’s a reason to be peacefully

protesting and to be angry I think we’re

angry every there’s a lot of reasons you

know there’s a lot of bad stuff going on

so I’m not trying to turn that down I’m

just saying that as a way to navigate

through it all like if to be careful not

to generalize because racism is a

generalization that you can’t and so you

can’t solve a generalization with even

more bad generalizations you have to be

to look at people individually

yeah Terry Crews that a great one about

that almost there

Terry Crews you know love that guy he’s

so funny he’s like you know if you say

all white people are racist well you

know that’s black supremacy or you know

that’s an other group supremacy type of

idea and he’s been getting a lot of

flack for that idea but I think you know

if we honestly look at these

conversations you know kind of what

you’re saying is like let’s let’s

examine ourselves let’s examine what we

think let’s let’s examine what we think

we know you know and part of that is

being like okay yeah this you know this

makes sense to me or this doesn’t I’m

gonna learn more and that gets to that

idea of like you know we’re all people

let’s learn more about people and we do

that through talking not by shouting at

someone and telling them you’re wrong

having a beard is yeah by having a happy

hour you get distributors yesterday I’m

like we need to we need like a marketing

thing like everybody just get a beer and

sit down and talk yeah it’d be way too

shameful let’s that that’s the hard

thing too is like in stuff like this and

I think like you saw it saw it change

interestingly enough the worldwide

global pandemic of the virus was

something that marketing companies still

felt like we can make a commercial and

be like let’s all come together and

whatever and then when we hit this next

level of like the riots and the race

Wars and you know police and things like

that then it was like this is this is

more this is too serious like I can’t

maybe I shouldn’t be marketing right now

yeah we should not be marketing through

it yeah it’s not and I appreciate that

but I haven’t seen much of that I don’t

think I’ve seen any of it with companies

like it’s like well we are see actually

you know what we are we are seeing it

like people cannot put out their

statement fast enough you know and like

I know I’m like you know what the ball

an example here that hit a little bit

closer to home and it’s like you know we

need to we need to do it harder you know

we’re better than anyone else putting

out whatever our message is whatever all

right and it’s well gosh it just doesn’t

feel right to me we should not be yeah I

mean yes we should be supporting fixing

problems and and there’s again there’s

like a lot of real reasons to be there’s

things that need to change there’s

things that you know whatever there’s

there’s there’s improvements to make to

make it really simple but we should not

do a competition about how hard we can

whatever it is you know like like we

were joking about like I’ll take it back

to the pandemic a little bit because

it’s less difficult to talk about

without sounding like an idiot it’s like

let’s close down the hardest you know

it’s like look I’m gonna compete with

how hard we can shut down or on hard

quarantine and it’s what like what yeah

yeah like people there’s like pictures

of people on shoots in like full-body

crazy you know best masks and like

that’s not even reckoned you know like

it’s not recommended to have those

gloves either and you’re so yeah you’re

making some ideological statement with

how hard you can shut down or how hard

you can yeah insert thing here you know

and right now it’s the the protesting

and not and really the protesting should

ya virtual signaling like it’s yes

protest is good like freedom of speech

is fundamental absolutely but it’s like

how hard can I do that it starts turning

into this thing that screws it up you

know and I luckily are our culture

people in general are you know I think

they’re getting that as the week is worn

on or whatever the weeks that it’s like

no this isn’t some competition for how

violent we can be it’s more about

continuing the real conversation and

trying to find real solutions and write

things like holy I don’t know

holy defunding police departments and

things it’s like gosh really I’m

like I get I get it but right is that is

that really a real conversation to have

versus like what’s really problem yeah

I’m Madison calm it’s great I like to

just see kind of you know what’s going

on in our city and it’s like you know

they paid it defund the police on the

drive up to the Capitol like they did in

DC I think it’s on King Street and then

the very next article is like shooting

you know on the east side of Madison

like a deck at a gas station between

several individuals and the police were

able to get some of them but I think you

know I think at the end of the day

people are reasonable but it’s kind of

like that signaling like no we got a we

got to be extreme we got to be the most

safe everyone is gonna be in you know

little plastic globes on our shoots and

no one’s gonna talk to each other and

everyone’s gonna be remote you know even

though that’s way beyond any of the

measures that the see the who has

recommended even bigger production

organizations don’t go that far but you

see people doing that and you’re like am

I supposed to clap like and then is that

it like are you just putting your

statement now because I’m not like

shutting down I mean it comes from yeah

folks picking the wrong thing to want

buffer pump down because when you’re

like I understand the motivation to want

to virtue signal or claim your ally ship

with something but the dichotomy with

doing with those actions is that when

you declare yourself an ally of

something you’re also by default

declaring who’s your enemy and I think

we need to work more like we said before

on ideas and all because when you’re

trying to look at just the more you try

to build up the teams and put people on

different teams or whatever else you

know and that in that sense it’s you’re

you’re creating the Gulf that you’re

trying to bridge you’re kind of working

against yourself at that moment

and and so you know like I I I guess I I

have a Twitter and I don’t I

maybe tweeted four times and they here

I’ve had it

but and I guess in my mind the

motivation to feel like I’m I’m your

ally I feel like that it just kind of

goes without saying like I don’t

mm-hmm I see any person huh I don’t care

you know I don’t care like what they are

you come on the street or see somebody

anywhere my first thing isn’t like oh

you must be a piece of crap you know

regard your friend you’re doing XYZ nope

wrong metrics I’m sorry how about that

person’s a human and I want to show them

love and respect until they prove to me

that they’re not worthy of that and even

if they they their actions prove out or

show that like they’re angry or they act

in a negative way my first assumption is

like well maybe they haven’t had a

person show them how to love yet maybe

they haven’t had the opportunities to

love or maybe they had a bad day or

maybe they’re just hangry or like a

million pretty things right you know I

would choose as like my metrics the

first thing would be like I don’t know

that I don’t know anything about them so

that somebody would like you’re supposed

to treat people the way you want to be

treated I hope that somebody would give

me the benefit of the doubt and so I’m

gonna give everyone else the benefit the

doubt – and just be like want to have a

conversation with maybe you know like I

want to know more about people in it and

there was a I watched a I’ve seen it

like many times but it came up the other

night where there was an interview with

with Lil Wayne you know when he tells

the story of like when he got shot or

whatever and like he was like bleeding

on the street and and all these people

were like walking over him and by him

and this one guy pulled up and was like

what are you doing what do you do like

why aren’t you helping him and they’re

all like I called an ambulance and he

goes no ambulance he’s gonna die and he

took he took LOI and like put him in his

car or physically put him in his car

took him to the hospital and he waited

until he was stable like this is what we

can see in the story he’s like it turns

out that that dude was a white guy

whatever else and he goes he goes

know anything about racism but I sure do

know I knew it this guy’s name was Bob

and the guy said you know just call me

Uncle Bob you know and he goes I don’t

know anything about that but I but I

know a good dude named Uncle Bob you

know and I thought my it’s kind of

that’s beautiful like buck like you in

that moment was just like how about you

try to find a lot of Uncle Bob’s in your

life or or be one to someone else that

needs one you know like you see somebody

in need like they’re calling out and

guess what it’s an opportunity for you

to work on your character or to grow

through giving yeah well so why look for

more opportunities to grow through

giving rather than then trying to take

what is the only thing we can actually

create that world right and then wasn’t

more dynamics you know there’s no way

it’s we can’t actually create anything

all the energy in the universe and all

the matter in the universe already

exists it just moves around and changes

forms love is something we can actually

add to the world that’s I think the

special unique thing that makes us human

beings is that I think we can add love

to the world and that’s I mean isn’t

that the solution for any problem like

to truly add love and loves not just

like all sunshine and rainbows it’s it’s

truth that point of you know

sunshine and rainbows like is it is it

love you know if my dad allowed me as a

kid to you know just do whatever I

wanted and trash the car and you know

mistreat people like no he’s gonna scold

me because he loves me and so like that

we get confused there too you know like

if there’s something that is in

somebody’s background that makes them

have more pain that they’re carrying and

like lash out in certain ways probably

do I need to like be standing there you

know getting bricks thrown at me like

and just be like well clearly you’re

upset about something no it’s

personalized that response right the eye

for an eye is so easy to rationalize but

it’s not

true it’s not like truth and love some

kind of same thing like it’s not true to

do that it’s rational

you know you punch me I punch you or at

least it’s not gonna solve anything

you can rationally arse out the reason

that that response was such to like hit

back and then you get hit and you’re

that’s your innate response and maybe in

the end there’s if we’re gonna worry

about drawing team lines Plus let’s

here’s the two teams that should exist

and in their fluid the thing is that

you’re gonna be on either one of these

teams in different moments any given

moment you go back and forth and that’s

there’s the team of people who need love

in this moment and there’s the other

team of people who need to give that

love for your on both teams at the same

time and there’s moments that you’re on

that you need to be on the one team in

the other but that’s still like that

there’s one division line that you

should have I guess like that like

that’s that’s a difference and as you

walk through your house you might find

that even with your own kids or you know

like you like oh you can walk through

your office or something and here’s a

person that you talk to in one moment

that they they need to pick me up and

then you know you try to help them you

know you give them whatever they need in

that moment and as you’re walking away

you feel blue or somebody else says

something that kind of makes you gives

you a little a little bit of love in

your life a little bit of light and then

you take that in at that moment you’re

like oh I didn’t realize I was a little

low on that and I needed that and that

made me feel good and now I have more to

give back and you know to reflect to

someone else and it’s so it’s so

individual as well and I think that’s a

part of it Carolyn made a comment about

this like why it’s important to learn

about history because we hear people’s

stories everyone you know we all are

different and we react differently and

we need different things so gross over

generalizations are difficult and like

with my kids I have two boys the older

ones Sebastian he’s an extrovert the

younger one you know kind of generally

the younger one Damien is more

introverted so Damien you know his love

deposits get filled up if he comes over

and has a you know kind conversation

love smiley hug and then he’ll go play

Lego for two hours you know and he’s


on the other hand like desires intense

personal connection and can’t you know

entertainment and so working from home

was hard because he would come down you

know in the morning like hey Dad can we

play you know a video game this

afternoon yeah you know I have a bunch

of meetings but I’ll let you know you

know kind of when it lightens up and we

can go do that ten minutes later he’s

back down dad do you know what time you

know like I need to figure out the time

I’m like buddy I don’t know you know

we’ll figure it out this afternoon goes

away then I hear like a creak and some

breathing and he’s right behind me just

standing there you know ten minutes

later because that kid just needs like

intense personal time and understanding

those things is a little easier with

your family because we have more time

we’re together every day and can figure

that out but you don’t figure that out

with a random person or even some of

your friends you might not know that

type of detail and so it’s so important

like you’re you’re saying to just meet

them where they’re at and love them in

whatever way you can you know to share

in the you know we are humanists as much

as we can and try to try to not separate

us based on our differences but bring us

together because of our differences it’s

a much more interesting book when we’re

all united right and that we’re all

different we’re all unique when when the

level of analysis is the individual

that’s a beautiful world I mean that’s a

unique and beautiful and multifaceted

world and the only way to get there is

on the individual one-on-one level to

love to try to love yourself try to love

the person next to you that’s it but

there’s no other solution there’s no

government there’s no it’s the only


like we we’ve the people you know we see

it’s the only way each individual person

can really make any impact yes you can

protest and you should and yes you can

save things and you should freedom of

speech but really it’s one on one on one

on one it’s it’s every cliche about

throwing starfish and oceans and

whatever it’s it’s the only level that

is action I haven’t heard any of those

really let me tell you about the scarf

only it’s the level of action that you

can really do that makes a difference

it’s the only way you can make a

difference you can’t hmm I don’t know

what’s coming I mean I get it because so

many people don’t you know yeah and so

many people don’t do that so then we

have these problems but then we think

solving them is this big monolithic

solution and it’s like no we have to get

back to the individual level take

responsibility for yourself and for how

much love you’re giving and receiving

and do it at your house and do it at

your work and do it walking down the

street and like that’s the only

sustainable model there ever was well

how many stories throw at history I mean

Romeo and Juliet every other like cool

cartoon and fantasy thing and I’ve

watched growing up like where you have

two very distinct this is good team this

is evil team and then two people person

from each team they get stranded

somewhere you know and they have to do

and they have to like learn how to talk

to each other and depend upon each other

and also they you realize that over

really not that different and wire wire

why did we think this or that I mean

that story repeats and repeats and

repeats and repeats in so many areas

because it’s just true it’s like well

yeah why were you why would you believe

in that it almost to your point John

like who are the generals saying you

know attack that line and go get that

and that’s you know the bad thing there

look you you know you can’t be

everything and all the time you can’t

see the big map all the time so maybe

it’s good to try to figure out what

you’re like yeah why are you believing

something and we realize that okay yeah

if you’re if you’re putting the cave in

the snowstorm with that other person you

had depend upon each other you’d

probably end up becoming friends you

know well that’s interesting to me like

I’ve been feeling a little bit like a

weight of responsibility in some of this

recent stuff because I’m to me I’m sure

with a few different people and like

like dude this is this is all marketing

they said it’s all like

when your branding something you like

just keep like shaving it down until

you’ve got it isolated to like one very

like aligned thing and say no it’s not

that it’s not that it’s just this and

when you start doing that to people it’s

not a good thing when you say like no if

you’re a Republican you’re this and this

and and you’re not any of that not any

of that

and if you’re Democrat you’re not any of

that I mean that is these are the five

things that you believe with your whole

heart you know like and then that I mean

that’s what like marketing companies

kind of do to like help solidify a brand

and make sure that a logo and a brand is

really well aligned but when you do that

on a human level you start to have some

of the problems that we see so I’ve been

feeling like and we have a lot of power

and Listerine you’re like be whoever you

know Joe ala I mean and people do do

that but really market individuality I

think long-form discussion is a way you

know ask Joe Rogan and everybody else

that has millions of 900 millions and

tens of millions of followers we’re all

so hungry for the details in the nuance

because we all know that that’s the

reality of our situation it’s not these

pared down

shaved down monolithic ideas that

marketing can really turn things into

and mm-hmm

I mean I you see that in good and bad

ways you see that with over generalizing

the protest stuff or the pandemic or

whatever it is or there’s too much

marketing involved that’s like dumbing

it down and making it vanilla and you

know either either you’re a denier or

your whatever your wolf or whatever you

know whatever else it’s like you can’t

it’s like know the realities really play

nuanced whether it’s data on the virus

or or or this you know other stuff are

going through it it’s reality

unknown it’s complicated that’s its

individual it needs to be individual

it’s beautiful when it’s individual it’s

on everybody in in out in throught world

history whenever you were alive you are

at the most modern time that has ever

been you know at any point in history

Roman civilization in between like it is

the most modern time so you know it’s in

many ways it’s not that different

and then other ways it’s very different

I think the difference for being alive

right now is just the wealth of

information at fingertips oh but that

doesn’t that the problem is that human

nature is so far behind you know that

quantum leap of information and what

that means there entails and the perfect

way to look at that is any news report

or anything you see right now where

they’ve draw it some statistic and they

say a study shows and they just throw

out some number and try to draw a

conclusion and then people human nature

starts to try to classify in a line with

that like new thing and the reality is

with data they’ve ever taken any kind of

real statistics course at a higher level

you understand that any when you report

an answer to a statistics problem on an

exam that answer has to be very specific

and very nuanced you know and that’s a

human at like report that comes out in a

study it’s like oh 37 percent of people

do this and it’s like no that’s not how

you even report an answer to a statistic

promise with this confidence level this

37 percent landed between this and that

and their this standard deviation with

these given like underlying like a

nuances you know and and assumptions

given these assumptions we can say with

this confidence that this many of this

and this but so very specific of a

statement to even make so to even like

digest that number is a very you need to

do it in a very in-depth way you need to

understand all the data underneath it to

understand that but so like very

few people actually even understand that

that’s all statistics even work so in

that sense you have this society of

people who have medieval human nature

you know or prehistoric human nature

because they’re trying to make sense of

the damn world around them and what

they’re different from or and what they

are alike or where to step and not step

and what’s hot you can’t touch you know

because they’re trying to survive but

then they get all this wealth of

information your fingertips with no

ability to understand what the hell

anything actually means and so it’s

really important to not throw things in

these broad buckets it’s so easy to

watch but even just drool and like

accept that crap right now believe this

because each day’s the number-5 doesn’t

tell us anything except one two three

four or five you know and over here it’s

like oh five is the biggest number and

over five is the smallest number and

here’s why and they both have valid

opinions you know and you’re like only

the number five is important followed

number five you’re like well we also

have to make opinions on it and that’s

hard and it’s okay if we get it wrong

because we’re trying to you know do this

together and I think Zack was talking

about it earlier like I I don’t think

people are evil I don’t think people are

sitting there like now I will do this to

the world I think people are gonna make

mistakes you know but I normally try

believing them goodness we I mean well

it’s it’s two things right is like I I

believe in the light and I believe that

it’s brighter than the dark but I also

believe that we are fundamentally fallen

and it’s up to us to decide to walk

toward the light I mean I think that’s I

think that every single one of us knows

that inside of us that were on a journey

and that if you just leave us be to do

whatever the hell it is we want to do

we’re not like fundamentally you know

perfect in this utopian level it’s it’s

really more about I’m gonna struggle

yeah you’re fundamentally fallen you’re

fundamentally physical you’re

fundamentally finite you’re

fundamentally selfish you’re

fundamentally all these more basic

things I mean look at our you know it

but I’ve never mind I won’t make that

comment but II you you need to your your

life is a struggle to to move towards

the good and the good exists it’s there

the love I mean we all know on that week

not everybody but the overall majority

of us have at least touched love

somewhere in our lives and know that

it’s a real thing in that and that you

can you know when you’re closer to it

you know when you’re further away and

your your life is the struggle to be

closer to it and and to manifest it your

own family and your own life your and

you should and there’s always hope

there’s absolutely always hope because

the light doesn’t go out but it doesn’t

mean we can’t you know sometimes it’s

just you that’s far away from the light

and sometimes it’s the whole world

sometimes it’s a country sometime

whatever you know we but it’s up to us

every single person my favorite way to

put that is you sit for um there’s no

such thing as darkness dark we define

what happens to light there’s no such

thing as cold it’s the absence of heat

yeah you know so so even trying to put

things in the teams of team cold and a

team heat it’s like no heat and no heat

it’s light no light oh yeah one’s just

the absence of the other it’s not you’re

not trying to root for the other one you

just haven’t had enough or there’s

nothing you know there’s not enough

there’s not enough of the one around to

be to be measured or known or felt you

know so that then complete pitch dark at

the very very very bottom of the ocean

where light the photons can’t physically

penetrate and one little tiny organism

has one you know what an ability to

create some bioluminescence it can make

the most miniscule amount of you know

illumination and it’s brilliant against

the backdrop of absolute darkness so

it’s doesn’t take very much to all of a

sudden be like oh that’s it really is

there do you think all the local craft

brew companies are philosophizing on

this level

I like that question right when it’s

murder we’re weirdos right we’re way too

ill I can’t hear you Jenna let’s say we

get my good ear know what I mean I you

know what but this has been our well I

mean not this conversation has been our

mission but when we’ve talked when Ryan

really used to lead these talks a lot

with beer dinners in the first five six

years we did a lot of beer dinners and

that was more popular we would talk

about how this is not about the beer

that this is about the community this is

about being together this is about Brian

used to really get passionate and talk

about like you know did you did you get

up this morning on purpose did you get

out of bed you know it wasn’t an


are you alive today you know are you are

you in communion with your that the

people around you and beer is just this

conduit it’s this excuse to be together

with people this this desire to be

together this desire to want to have

love in your life is fundamentally human

and to us that’s what our company and

brand is is really about you know

neither one of us are extraordinary like

beer drinkers of course we sample our

beer constantly we’re obsessed with the

quality of it we’re always trying to do

new things but like it was never about

like you know how much can we nerd out

about beer and then prove to people how

much we know about it and rate it and

all these others say it was more about

it weren’t cydnus like bringing people

together thing and I think that’s why

we’re so willing to talk about these

they have these kind of ridiculous meta

discussions you know even though we’re

just a bunch of dumbass brute Briona

this you know cos who are we we’re just

some idiot like a couple of monkeys like

trying to yeah left eggs around and

survive I have you know we have some

things with yeast

wait yeah good cells and beards that

like for me we don’t know anything but

that’s what we’re trying to do is like

you know it’s just I don’t know it yeah

like the desire you want to be together

and to not be separated is the solution

– damn near everything isn’t it and if

beer can play some stupid little fart

noise you know part role in that in that

direction then then great well we’ll

spend our insignificant lives doing that

happiness but also by the air come

living a brain shell near you well I

mean yeah and we like you said you like

you guys especially being on the media

marketing side like man talk you know

talk about let’s if we’re gonna take

individual responsibility for what’s

going on in our community and our

business and our world and our families

we need to do a lot better job marketing

that message you know to be together to

love the the individual responsibility

three beautiful jewels we we got to do

our best to do that to counteract all

this whittling down of humans because

we’re you know the dignity of human life

is not something to whittle down into

some marketing slogan you know we need

to we need to celebrate people and

celebrate love more and spread it as

much as we can because that’s all we can

do in our tiny little insignificant

individual level that’s that’s all we

can really do at all and who cares about

the rest of our opinions yeah well I

think we’re wrapping up here and we’ve

just about solved it but before we wrap

up I would like us to play two truths

and one lie

Oh people have cheated before I’ve

cheated once on accident but I encourage

you to play the game as its intended to

be which is me you come up with to

choose one lie you tell all three and

then we guess and this just you know

people can learn a little bit more about

us don’t worry John and I will go first

to give you guys time to think through

this process and yeah any questions we

just have to let we’re going to go

around the table on each tell to true


will do yeah will do me will do John and

then we’ll do each of you guys so get

those Minds going while listening all


so I wrote these down which is great so

and we played this maybe four or five

times now I’m gonna have to start

digging deep I don’t have that many

truths in my life yeah well then we also

have known each other for a long time so

you got to kind of get something that’s

like just on the border

as a kid my favorite snack to come home

to like after you came home from school

and you made a snack like v8 juice you

guys remember that big push in that 80s

in early 90s Oh Ryan and I share the

first the same first name in middle name

some of you may know that whether it’s

true or not in high school I almost died

or I think I almost died while

choreographing a Star Wars fight scene

with it with a friend so those are my

three you can ask questions do I call BS

on the VA nobody likes making our new

juice called v9 1/12 more percent tomato

1 more than v8 so it’s better

yeah it’s w9 I’m going Meany I’m going

v8 as well that’s the lie all right what

do you got Ryan

the v8 thing you all win we’ve got I did

not do as well as I thought I would do

well in liking video I think yeah I

think you know at least Ryan knows that

we share the same first name and middle

name even though we spell our middle

name differently I spell it very oddly


I didn’t know if the other two of you

knew that and then in high school buddy

of mine and I were choreographing a Star

Wars fight for a film and we were in a

hayloft and I stepped through the like

the stairway it was actually a ladder

and hole and there’s about a 12-foot

fall so I stepped on there and started

falling back but I immediately threw my

arms out I caught myself so I didn’t

follow through and then I’m like in the

hole like this and my buddy’s like

laughing at me trying to come over like

life that happened but the the v8 thing

was in a podcast that I was listening to

this morning somebody was talking about

the 80s and they’re like I would always

come home and eat v8 so I had to like it

just to like eat vegetables and cows I’m

like I’m gonna get a big v8 drink and be


I hear it’s not bad in Bloody Marys but

I’ve never had that yeah so you guys got

it right you win all right

John’s up now you guys can keep thinking

oh oh you can also vote at home or

online v8 gross

Amanda says don’t skip John you skipped

me you know in one of our previous I

didn’t oh I just forgot about you I

didn’t skip you oh forgot okay let’s see

dang it see you like I think of them

like while you’re going and then I just

like it’s like my mind just goes blank

like I don’t even remember where I am

okay all of our grandparents

Amanda’s and mine are represented in the

names of our children number two I broke

my wrist

I hate these line fracture

two times both times on the monkey bars

for anyone following from home we’ve had

several about his bones and I can’t

remember which one because at one point

he’s like I’ve never broken a bone until

something and one time while running a

hurdle race I went under a hurdle and

was still not last Oh

thought it was a turtle they said turtle

I want that to be true you need to go

under turtles not Oliver turtles ate our

good friend a aron says the last one is

a lie whatever it is it’s a lot I was

thinking one thing because it seemed

like you had to reach to figure out

which one is gonna make up like you as

Stu’s trying to buy some time you think

it doesn’t go under under the hurdles of

DQ isn’t it so I’m gonna say that too I

think you can be like don’t you just eat

heat I guess you wouldn’t be last

technically just be DQ if I had ever

tried to run hurdles and track that

would have been my true story

discounting the truth bear-crawl the

ability for it to be true I just think

you’re buying time so I don’t think I’m

with you

two votes for number three also your

wife says I am married to him and I

forget and then hurdle one is true the

hurdle one so I think she says number

three is true

frost you know I feel like every time

the ball is so specific so I I do

believe the first one with all your

grandparents being represented and your

children’s name is true Rael is you have

a prosthetic left arm which i think is

true fertile one is I like to hear

myself sorry I’m gonna go with to the

bone thing it could be a specific

technical ‘ti

three one three I got you all my we have

not given rosemary in Hubert or Betty

and Duane any love oh no none of those

games have made it into our child’s

names yet I broke my wrist to several

times when I was once in first grade and

once the fourth grade both times

doing the same thing on the monkey bars

just like missing the neck drum and

coming down and putting my hands and

then the Fertile one I was in a race it

was actually an indoor track meet like

an early season one and I tripped and in

trying to recover I managed to I was

like too close to the next hurdle that

was coming up to me and I just like kind

of like rolled under it and got back up

that’s hilarious Hubbard and I finished

and I was not last

somebody was slower than me even with

that and you don’t get a DQ for hitting

hurdles are going under so long you stay

in your lane because it’s not faster

sure like just oh it’s not over it’s

just the fastest way just not faster

what if you just knock them all over dog

yeah I’ve seen people come all over and

they’re not fast

oh my gosh that’s great really slows you

down that’s all right feel like that’s

just ripe for innovation a new technique

I just get really good at rolling

not saying we need to be able to find

another way around the hurdle all right

you guys are out who wants to go are you

all go all right

I am I’m interested in shoes because I

have special feet number is I I played

I’m trying to figure out how to put

these these other things for me why

wordham properties that are all

believable or not believable in the same


I rang there was one point in my life

when I pulled out all of my eyelashes

and also when I played football I I

played more in my first game than in the

other 3 years of football combined

combined that’s movable I mean you could

have been so bad in that one game the

coaches we know so you played more in

that first game than all the three years

combined like per minute yeah like yeah

that’s how I calculate that yeah right

and I played all four years of high

school I was I was on the team all four

years in the nice dream I was gonna say

why don’t you go first John well guess

first since we’re not Ryan’s eyelashes

biologically the shoes special feet he

loves shoes this I’m interested in shoes

you guys like shoes with thee I’m trying

to remember if I remember what you have

for shoes when I’ve seen you I feel like

you have like nice shoes

you had the statement about the

fashionable Ness of shoes just strange

general an affinity for special shoes

and you sir have you pulled out all of

your eyelashes interested in shoes

because I have specialty that was the

statement I made is it true exactly oh

now I’m messing myself up by looking at

people’s comments I’m gonna go with the

I’m gonna I’m gonna I’m gonna go with

the football line dude I do I played I

mean one game is how long so you didn’t

get 60 minutes over the course of I mean

it could be true but you just seem like

like you could have played some more

football not Rob also shared his thought

on that he said statistically impossible

probably not statistically impossible

but maybe improbable

jerilyn also says find a way around the

hurdle sounds like Zacks first business

book that’s an old and then we have we

got a vote actually I don’t know if this

is a vote a manager says eyelashes ouch

and her money is on the sixth toe Aaron

Aldo de leche thing and Rob perro said

eyelashes don’t grow back lie I don’t

think that’s true this is not my two

truths in alive but Rob I burned off my

Iowa flaming Dr Pepper one time that’s a

story for some other time and my

eyelashes grew back there’s somebody

else Aaron who also said his he burned

his often they grew back I shaved mine

as a child a lot of a lot of weekend

warriors have burned eyelashes okay I

will vote mmm I’m gonna go with number

three as well

it seems less probable I feel like you

were maybe wondering about the statistic

and how you could say it to make it a

good lie and it seems it just seems

improbable so shoot I’m gonna go so the

shoes I’m a little thrown off because is

it exclusively because of your special

feed or insider information or do you

like I think they’re there there’s so

much Alif they’re great because

eventually they’re especially very wait

Ryan has a six don’t would you say he

has special feet but I can’t tell if

it’s like well he also likes shoes

because he likes shoes in the electric

here and I remember the eyelashes it was

creepy so I’m gonna go football because

I also remember that you were the kicker

for a while and I don’t remember

freshman year so I’m gonna go with

football through you’d be in the live

it’s not number three is alive but

barely if I had said the first half of

the first game with my freshman here

they would have all been truths because

John hit the nail on the head I suck

punching bag for like dummy to you but

wasn’t it like great at football in the

end so I played like a lot like the

first half like the whole first guys

like special teams offense and defense

and everything and then I think there’s

this beautiful movie moment where I was

on a kick off this the runner broke free

and I was actually like the I was the

fastest person on a bunch where I was

chasing out the last person chasing him

down and I jumped right wide like the 10

yard line and I like just missed his

feet and I was the only thing that got

there but I missed it and I think in

that moment it was like the rest of my

football career

fingers it was just gone

yep you’re like the you’re like the

inverse Rudy do you like that yeah yeah

yeah I’m an example of the ninety nine

point nine three other people who suck a

co-wash Rudy and said this guy’s got the

heart of Rudy and gave him a shot that

Boyd is this is not that movie but it

was the championship and the coach we’re

up by like 58 can Ryan go in for just

one play and the coaches like a lot of

people on social media who want to see

your feet but this is not their kind of

stream my laughy or sort of but no my

right foot is totally flat no arch my

right foot is totally flat no arch and

it’s a half size smaller I know it

that’s eyes longer or no shorter but

with the longer foot with the wider foot

cuz it’s flat the other one has a normal

arch they’re like a half size different

ones flat ones normal so it’s very hard

to find a shoe that will accommodate

both stupid feet that don’t matter if I

bought like a twelve and a half for the

one foot and a wide and a twelve for the

other one the same shoe and but

inevitably my feet end up hurting like

hell and then my back hurts also other

stupid fat stuff that happens but like

love shoes I’m interested because I’m

always like oh just does this shoe is

this actually gonna work for my feet

that I can wear them and they’re

actually gonna like work you know my

damn feet you have to care more what is

on his feet he’s on his feet all day

yeah I’m like I can’t like I for years I

end up like just wearing like trying to

I went through so many pairs of hiking

boots in the brewery because I just kind

of weird it’s a rubber boots like that

just hurt like hell so I was like well I

need something and that I had where the

hiking boots in and they would fall

apart from the chemicals so I’m like

okay now I’m a man so I sit the Araneta

our next down with your name to be

Ryan’s special these are questions

through mislead official feet

connotation special feet not my favorite


Brian special cheese IEPA this gives me

an idea for a truth or a lie for myself

for next time yeah

left a tune in the air weird I just was

like when I was like 10 or 12 or

something so I was like laying in bed

and my eyes were like itching and

scratching and I was like going like

this and I was like for one moment it

felt like I pulled out an eyelash of my

I felt better for a second and then I

fell on this very bad positive feedback

loop and I just were kind of just kept

going like this until like my I stopped

itching and I woke up the next morning

and my mom was like what did you do when

I don’t even realize what I had done and

I was like oh I’m an idiot

they’re like is Ryan okay like is he

under a lot of stress like there is he

being like is something wrong at school

they’re a little bit of that my last

inhale a [ __ ] to me I just pull them out

I’m on assess what happened I was like

come on eyes were itchy and bothering

mean I’d went like this and I felt

better and then she didn’t really

discuss it with me until I was much

older does happen therefore yes yeah

yeah here’s leaders later she said she

looked at me and was like what’s

something seems off what’s wrong and

then before I lashes

I was like argh I can’t quite tell what

it is but your face looks wrong what is

it that was wrong I love it alright so

let’s see we you all got mine right

we all got John’s wrong we got the other

Ryan’s right Zack well I will stick em

up I’m sorry all right

okay are the feet through me I’ll be

thinking about that for days no well I

give it’s not fair but I am old we’re

brothers so I guess maybe it is fair I

give right a lot of [ __ ] about stuff

like that like Maya like stuff like

shoes but I kind of my heart because

he’s the older brother right you got to

give it actually I got

I expect because when you know before I

was bigger physically I got I got you

know I was a big boy I grew older

brothers that were made sure that I was

grew up to be I don’t know

tough thick-headed yeah and damaged a

little bit emotionally mentally all

right what’s uh what’s some good truths

and lies interesting how he said I what

I said interesting how you said that the

lies and the truth the truth and the

lies I spent an evening at my friend’s

normal house in Milwaukee evening having

dinner with Pharrell and any Rd evening

I spent dinner like we had dinner at my

friend’s house with Pharrell and part of

any Rd they’re on tour in Milwaukee I am

an avid home brewer but haven’t had

enough time to do it since we started

this brewery and

I had a I cared for a bonsai tree in

college the delivery of that whole

sequence was spot-on

Carolyn says that Zach’s emotional

damage could be the companion beer to

ryan special feet the Carolyn and Wanda

collaborated on the makings of the

beginning of a great buddy movie where

Ryan has to find the some person in the

world who has a flat left foot and an

arch right foot mr Wood Brothers

everyone thinks the third is a lie the

bonsai tree the first one sounds so this

is a protip now that you guys have all

gone John kind of mentioned it on one of

the streams but a good lie is one that

could be like your friends story but you

didn’t know that so I feel like number

one could be your story I feel like I

feel like that’s that’s just a very

detailed one so I feel like that could

be your story number two I don’t think

that you were a brewer I’m trying to

think of my knowledge how far back it

goes and then number three that number

three kind of sounds like a lie just

because of the way you delivered it I’m

gonna go with number two cuz I don’t

know that I’ve heard that before I

haven’t heard number three I never but I

know wait so number two is that you’re

an avid you are in a brewery heaven

brewed since the thing you just say

bonsai tree and Koga is Japanese so

there is some story there so now I’m

second-guessing everything but I’m just

gonna say number two I’m gonna say

you’re not a homebrewer yeah I mean he

could be a genius at this game and I

just know

just watching the the excitement sweep

over his face when he realized that he

was going to say bonsai tree think of it

now and I felt witty also in the first

one he referred to his friend’s house as

his friends normal house a little too

much detail extra story you know like

yeah I was at my friend’s normal house

like normal people

I mean Pharrell cleared like 40 million

last year so I guess just because I was

trying to make it as believable as

possible or unbelievable okay I’m gonna

go a three I’m going Banzai you are

going bonsai tree alright Ryan what do

you think you know your brother the best

what is it you you can give your answer

before he answers cuz we’ve already

answered number two the home brew yeah


never never home brewed number one was

that David Andrews yeah yeah yeah yeah

what my number one was buddy is like a

famous guy a guy I grew up with and then

he he moved and when we were growing up

is like my best friend and then he moved

but then we like stayed in contact here

and there and he ended up being like

famous and got signed by Pharrell and

went on tour with them and so after one

of their shows he was in Milwaukee we

went to their show hung out with his

family and then like Pharrell and his

team like just came back to his mom’s

house and we like sat around the kitchen

table and like that dinner it was kind

of weird awesome I made it I made a

complete ass of myself but it was kind

of interesting just to humanize like a

superstar like that just to have dinner

with him he’s just kind of like a you

know just a big weirdo like the rest of

us so I’m gonna talk to him and you

start singing one of his songs yeah yeah

I’m sorry I think I was trying to like

probably anti starstruck by him so I

probably did something more like you’re

trying to be super – yeah just generally

in polite and considerate was probably

my error I made this so much you

probably want some more good as soon as

you like try to pretend to be normal

you’re like so ya know is it this guy at

this friend of ours low is out to my

friend use like Alex’s neighbor went to

school together he we always growing up

we were like nine years old was like

this kid’s gonna be the president United

States he’s just he’s in a he’s a savant

just his social skills and his

intelligence and now he’s like now he’s

like approach I think he helped found

Spotify he was like a rock star he I

don’t know he he’s a pretty cool he’s a

special guy he’s so we knew chlorella

was unfroze label was me yeah

star track and now he writes which is

funny because he’s like this you know

her friend like and they will be open

for fur Elliott Chester French open for

any rd but anyway he cool connection one

of those like small world I know

somebody so that makes me cool

connection even though I haven’t like

seen him in years

classic next time I’m playing I’m gonna

change up a super store and then you

flex your muscle yeah it wasn’t uh I

don’t know Bon Jovi

it was Pharrell yeah so I almost

home-brewed all of my life when we were

dating bought me a home brew kit before

way before the brewery it was a thing

and I just never I never touched it and

I still feel bad about it

the first time any part of that kid has

been put into use was a couple weeks ago

when we filled it with kombucha for our

next experiment oh nice so and I feel

awful about it cuz it was a cool gift

and I just totally left my pain on it

cuz I’m like I’m just not I’m not a

happy guy I like to like work non-stop


not work I’m not I’m not like into

hobbies like working out and playing

baseball or my hobbies and now it’s like

yard work but that’s like a chore I

don’t know chores or my hobby so you can

make hay with that gift so yeah and then

number three I don’t even remember what

I said for number fun fact yeah yeah I

had one my junior year of college my

buddy and I KJ went to the we went to

like some flower shop in town here and

he was getting like orchids and a jade

plant I think I got a bonsai tree cuz I

just always I always wanted a bonsai

tree since Karate Kid and and it turns

out they’re pretty hard to care for and

I’d spent I spent all this time reading

about how to try to not kill it and then

I went I went off for a weekend of like

a baseball trip we had you know we’re

playing some away team and I came back

and my all my my roommates have like

brought the bonsai tree out on the porch

as like a drinking companion and just

like destroyed it before it should I

deserved it they like to make fun fun of

me for it and smell nice we’re all

stupid things yeah well thanks for

sharing your two truths and a lie

I think that’s always fun you learn

learn some new unique things about each

other so we’re we are wrapping up here

what do you guys wanna plug you guys

have been doing those pop-up tap rooms

and now I see other people are doing

pop-up tap room so you do something good

and people copy that’s awesome yeah

we’ve had we’ve had people like Carbon

Copy like even the formatting of the

motors carving four carbons we have like

it’s like the same vendors the same

format the same venues they’re showing

up and I guess that’s the highest form

of flattery and and and catching

something that that’s good for the is

innate skill you know more power to them

we have seen John’s this week and we

have more lined up in the weeks ahead

keep watching our Facebook page our

events page for for all those things as

they come about

we we do have a plan and desire to get

this into a non drive-through format but

you know we’re gonna do that as the

general public becomes more comfortable

you know with with that so we’ll we’ll

do the drive-thru format as long as it

makes sense and to keep you know honor

social distancing do our part to be good

citizens now and and we’d love to get

into more of at the inverse and format

you know as time goes on and we have

other ideas for bigger events we have

partnerships we’re trying to seek with

with bigger organizations that that

really depend on event income and so

we’re talking to some of those people

different neighborhood organizations so

there’s yeah there’s a lot more to come

they’re bringing out of Wisconsin

Brewers Guild beard oh yeah canning it

tomorrow so the Brewers Guild that main

revenue source is the different

festivals they put on like what this

Father’s Day this weekend next weekend

next weekend so on Father’s Day usually

is when the beer lovers festival is over

in Milwaukee and they had to cancel that

or postpone it at the very least so it’s

pretty much just not going to happen and

then so not going to have their event so

their funding is really low and Zach was

nominated into being the vice president

of Wisconsin Brewers Guild actually it

was a last year to year and a half ago

and they were talking with the director

and everything else and we just said you

know what let’s we’ll just put something

together slap a label on it and do

something it’s just the guild so that’s

we made this really light crisp kind of

back to basics back to where a craft

beer started which was like just really

good tasting beer that’s like very

simple nothing over-the-top yes is it go

longer really enjoy so it’s um you know

it’s it’s just good beard Bryant nailed

and that’s a huge story overtop of 4.9%

really delicious beer I mean that for

the first name I thought I had it for

was like the reset button that’s how I

conceptualized it was kind of like just

reset the field taste buds and stuff and

you notice craft beer comes out of this

I wasn’t singing and now it’s being

canned tomorrow and so we’ll be selling

it starting out at sacrum and then we’re

not sure how far we can broadcast after

that too

around to get the Brewers Guild back on

its feet it sells really really well the

world makes me up it’s called the new


yeah yeah

worn out yeah so that yeah that Oh big P

and tomorrow and then or making Seltzer

like crazy where that’s really going

well so keep drinking our Seltzer’s be

on the lookout for that and four more

derivatives of that you know we get into

like some Imperial stuff and other gars

and hey Gocha and all that so we have

normal we have a lot of stuff we’re

playing with and the tap room is open

where we’re following we’re gonna follow

and continued follow Dane County

guidelines 25% inside six beats based

out outside and and wear masks and we’re

sanitizing and we’re cleaning and all

that stuff so awesome very cool well

thanks again for coming on and playing

with us and hanging out I feel like we

just started getting into that real

philosophical stuff which is basically

all of our conversations ever so maybe

we can be there next time Aaron says

keep doing awesome things carbon 4 so

thank you also down on Napoli can’t come

back soon enough awesome thanks guys for

coming and have a great rest of your

week for everyone who’s tuned in check

us out we are back flip at let’s back

flip on all the socials and of course

these guys are let’s say you’re at

carbon 4 and at carbon 4 brewing so if

you look you up on Instagram or Facebook

you’re there follow for all the events

next week we will be talking with the

cinematographer a friend of ours which

will be really fun to see how he’s been

working in the Chicago Milwaukee area

and then after that we’re talking with

another friend Rachel Werner who is I’m

trying to think of what her actual job

title is but she’s a social she’s a

social person

she’s a wet influencer he’s an

influencer she’s a social media marketer

she writes for different companies she

does events for different companies and

you know just helps bring personality

and brand and voice to different

companies so that’ll be really fun check

us out next week Friday at noon the

following week Thursday at noon and I’m

sure we’ll have the

guys back in you know if not a month

maybe two months because it’s always fun

to hang out alright thanks guys thank

you bye